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Digital Audio Processor

Crestron

C2N-DAP8

8

•

Digital Audio Processor: C2N-DAP8

Operations Guide - DOC. 8186

(Chassis Ground)

Use this chassis screw to connect the audio source(s) common ground(s) to the C2N-
DAP8.

AUDIO OUT

The two RCA connectors labeled

A

provide stereo output of the unit’s analog

crosspoint, without any processing.

The two RCA connectors labeled

B

provide stereo output of analog crosspoint, but

with volume/tone control.

The eight RCA connectors that comprise the

SURROUND SOUND OUT

group,

provide surround sound encoded output to the

FRONT

,

SURROUND

,

BACK

,

CENTER,

and

SUBWOOFER

channels. Typically, the

FRONT

,

SURROUND

,

BACK

, and

CENTER

outputs are routed to a surround sound amplifier such as the

CNAMPX-7X200; the

SUBWOOFER

output goes to a powered subwoofer.

RS-232

The C2N-DAP8 provides one RJ-11 connector for RS-232 communication with a PC
or third-party serial devices. This port supports baud rates up to 115K and RTS/CTS
hardware handshaking. Data Set Ready (DSR) and Data Terminal Ready (DTR) are
not supported. The pins are configured as shown in the following table.

PIN FUNCTION

1

CTS (Clear to Send)

2

GND

3 RXD

(Receive)

4

TXD (Transmit)

5

RTS (Request to Send)

6

Not connected

NET

This four-pin mini-Cresnet connector is used to supply unit power (24VDC) and for
connection to other four-wire devices in the Cresnet system.

SETUP LED and Pushbutton

The SETUP pushbutton and its associated LED are located on the rear panel and are
to be used for setup of the unit’s network ID during the initial configuration of a
Cresnet

®

system or when the device is being added/replaced. Refer to “Method B

(Touch Settable IDs)” on page 11

for detailed information.

LED Indicators

The front panel

PWR

(Power) indicator illuminates when the unit is supplied with

24 volts DC from the network. The

NET

indicator flashes whenever communication

occurs between the control system and the C2N-DAP8 (when the unit is polled on
the network). The

NET

LED indicates that the current SIMPL Windows program

has a network device defined at the same Net ID as the C2N-DAP8.

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Summary of Contents for C2N-DAP8

Page 1: ...Crestron C2N DAP8 Digital Audio Processor Operations Guide ...

Page 2: ... Pro Logic II Dolby Digital Dolby Digital 5 1 and the double D symbol are trademarks of Dolby laboratories Manufactured under license from Digital Theater Systems Inc DTS DTS Digital Surround Sound DTS ES Extended Surround DTS Virtual 5 1 NEO 5 and Neo 6 are trademarks of Digital Theater Systems Inc All other brand names product names and trademarks are the property of their respective owners 2003...

Page 3: ...uipment 19 Crestron Digital Audio Tools 19 Setup Procedures 20 DAT Program Procedures 20 Example Program 33 Programming Software 39 C2Net Device Slot in Configuration Manager 40 Setting the Net ID in Device Settings 41 C2N DAP8 Symbols in Programming Manager 41 Uploading and Upgrading 45 Communication Settings 45 Uploading a SIMPL Windows Program 47 Firmware Upgrade 49 Problem Solving 50 Troublesh...

Page 4: ......

Page 5: ...nal summaries below and on the following page highlight the main features of the C2N DAP8 Functional Summary Audio Multiple surround sound modes Automatic recognition of digital input audio coded format Up to eight channels 7 1 of home theater outputs One RJ 45 stereo input output via CAT5 Two coax digital inputs S PDIF Two TOSLINK fiber optic digital inputs Five local analog stereo inputs Two ste...

Page 6: ...gic As a descendent of the advanced technology used in Dolby Stereo theaters Dolby Pro Logic Surround decoders give enhanced spatial and directional effects when used in the home environment Sophisticated logic steering techniques are used to extend the impact of the soundtrack over a wider listening area Wide separation smooth dynamic action and proper spatial imaging are key characteristics of P...

Page 7: ...t channels from 5 1 channel sources by adding a rear center channel This is done using a matrix decoder that derives three surround channels from the two in the original recording The center rear is matrixed into the rear 2 channels of the 5 1 soundtrack like what Pro Logic does with the front three channels in the Pro Logic mode The decoder takes the right rear and left rear information which als...

Page 8: ...channel and the reversed phase component to the surround left right and back channels DTS Neo 6 Music This mode is suited mainly for playing music The front left and right channel signals bypass the decoder and are played directly so there is no loss of sound quality and the effect of the surround signals output from the center and the surround left right and back channels add a natural sense of e...

Page 9: ...ound sound is not active Output level 1 8 VRMS maximum THD N 0 05 unity gain S N 96 dB maximum output level Volume control range 80dB to 20 dB Output impedance 50 Ohms 8 RCA connectors for 7 1 surround sound output Output level 3 VRMS maximum Subwoofer output level 8 5 VRMS maximum THD N 0 005 unity gain S N 94dB Dynamic range 113dB Output impedance 200 Ohms Volume control range 80dB to 12dB Analo...

Page 10: ...on dealers and Crestron Authorized Independent Programmers CAIP only New users may be required to register to obtain access to certain areas of the site including the FTP site Physical Description The C2N DAP8 digital audio surround sound processor is housed in a black enclosure with labeling on the front and rear panels The front panel of the unit includes two standard LEDs PWR and NET All connec...

Page 11: ... The RJ 45 AUDIO port is used to transmit and receive analog stereo audio from the head end SPDIF Coaxial Digital Audio These two RCA connectors A B are used for coaxial digital input from local sources OPTICAL These two Toslink ports C D are used for fiber optic S PDIF inputs AUDIO IN These ten RCA connectors 2 6 L R provide for five local stereo input sources ...

Page 12: ...K and RTS CTS hardware handshaking Data Set Ready DSR and Data Terminal Ready DTR are not supported The pins are configured as shown in the following table PIN FUNCTION 1 CTS Clear to Send 2 GND 3 RXD Receive 4 TXD Transmit 5 RTS Request to Send 6 Not connected NET This four pin mini Cresnet connector is used to supply unit power 24VDC and for connection to other four wire devices in the Cresnet s...

Page 13: ...loads Product Manuals Wiring Diagrams section of the Crestron website www crestron com When calculating the wire gauge for a network run the length of the run and the power factor power usage in watts of each network unit must be taken into consideration If multiple network units are to be daisy chained the power factors of each unit must be added to determine the power factor of the entire chain ...

Page 14: ...efer to the Troubleshooting Communications section in the respective Operations Guide for the control system There are two different methods for setting the C2N DAP8 NET IDs Method A Cresnet address settable ID described below requires that a single unit be the only network device connected to the control system This method is necessary with a 2 Series control system upgrade file CUZ version prior...

Page 15: ...the Viewport alternately select F4 10 Repeat this procedure for each C2N DAP8 to be added to the system Method B Touch Settable IDs Before using this method you should have a list of all current network devices and their Net IDs to avoid assigning duplicate IDs Set Net ID by TSID These procedures are for TSID enabled network devices during the initial configuration of a Cresnet system or when such...

Page 16: ...uld appear on the list CAUTION This function does not prevent you from setting duplicate IDs Be sure to check current assignments before entering the desired Cresnet ID number Serial Number to TSID Conversion This utility is useful in a case where there are multiple devices of the same type on a network you need to locate a particular one you know the TSID but not the serial number and your site i...

Page 17: ...for tabletop mounting or stacking Apply the feet near the corner edges on the underside of the unit NOTE Reliable grounding of rack mounted equipment should be maintained Particular attention should be given to supply connections other than direct connections to the branch circuit e g use of power strips Two ears are provided with the unit and must be installed so that it can be rack mounted Refer...

Page 18: ...ces via standard RCA connections and Toslink fiber optic connectors The unit s built in audio matrix switcher distributes these inputs to local outputs NOTE The coax connection to audio inputs A and B and the optical connection to inputs C and D carry the same signal type S PDIF but Toslink cabling is only good up to a maximum of 10 meters the coax version can go 10 15 meters This should be consid...

Page 19: ...Crestron C2N DAP8 Digital Audio Processor Operations Guide DOC 8186 Digital Audio Processor C2N DAP8 15 Audio Routing ...

Page 20: ...Digital Audio Processor Crestron C2N DAP8 16 Digital Audio Processor C2N DAP8 Operations Guide DOC 8186 Typical Surround Sound Configuration ...

Page 21: ...fer output to a powered subwoofer Connection to Surround Sound Amplifier and Speakers Speaker Types Different speaker types have different sound reproduction characteristics which affect their performance in a home theater environment Crestron makes no specific recommendations and provides the following information for reference purposes only To create the most realistic surround sound experience ...

Page 22: ...agram to the left of this paragraph and arrange the speakers in the listening area according to the following general guidelines Refer to the instructions given in Surround Sound System Setup on page 18 for optimum placement Place front speakers so their front surfaces are as flush as possible with the front of the viewing screen and at an angle to the listening position of 45 to 60 degrees with t...

Page 23: ... the aout output of the AINC to the Volume input of the C2N DAP8 then connect the Volume_FB output of the C2N DAP8 to the FbckSignal input of the AINC This way the program will always be updated with the true value of the C2N DAP8 The same applies to any analog value that can be changed from two places EQ Trim etc Test Equipment No matter which method is used to set up the surround sound system in...

Page 24: ...p 1 above set up the system delays as described in Delay Settings starting on page 26 5 Select Tools Realtime Mode from the menu bar or click the Realtime Mode icon on the toolbar Then select Tools Source Noise Steering or click the Source Noise Steering icon and use the information given in Source Noise Steering on page 21 to send pink noise to each speaker to verify that the speakers are connect...

Page 25: ...ication and the device by performing a Send To Device or Load From Device transfer from the Communications tab screen before attempting any real time equalizer configuration changes Refer to Communications on page 24 for additional details Source Noise Steering The Digital Audio Tools program Source Noise Steering window is for selecting internal noise and external audio sources for calibrating th...

Page 26: ... F8 The Mute button on the lower right of all screens is intended as a panic button to prevent damage to speakers in the event of sudden large increases in sound level which can occur when switching from one sound source to another Pressing this button again does not turn mute off Turn mute off after the problem is resolved as stated above Using Source Noise Steering for Calibration Calibrating a ...

Page 27: ...iltered noise centered at 750Hz with a 12dB octave roll off Dolby Noise is used for setting speakers to the same level when calibrating a room White Noise External Source Only White noise is a sound that is comprised of a random signal with all audio frequencies present over time and at various signal levels It provides equal energy per Hz which will give a 3dB per octave increase starting from th...

Page 28: ...de DOC 8186 Graph 2 Communications The Communications tab allows you to define the settings for communication with the C2N DAP8 in order to download existing files and upload new ones It is important that you set the communication parameters first before doing any of the other setup procedures ...

Page 29: ...lable COM port is selected and that all communication parameters and necessary options from the Port Settings window are selected as shown in the illustration below Click the OK button to save the settings and close the window 3 Synchronize communication between the PC and the device by clicking the Transfer Configuration Load From Device button This transfers any current settings of the C2N DAP8 ...

Page 30: ...fer if present The distinction between Large and Small speakers is their ability to provide effective sound in the low frequency range 120 Hz and below not their physical size Speakers designated as Large will receive low frequency signals For speakers designated as Small low frequency signals are filtered out and routed to the subwoofer Check the rating of all speakers to determine their proper s...

Page 31: ... Audio Controls Iasys RTA Note that the delays are not sent automatically in Realtime Mode Click on the Send button to transfer the delay settings to the device Room Calibration Any listening viewing area has its own characteristics that can affect the quality of sound reproduction The goal is to analyze the room and compensate for any unwanted effects such as reflections from hard surfaces and re...

Page 32: ...source via the Decoding Mode drop down list For example you may want the input from your CD Changer to always be played in DTS Neo 6 Music mode The C2N DAP8 automatically recognizes the signal type that appears on its digital input sources You can select the preferred decoding mode for each input type for each source from among the available types Certain types have limited decoding modes availabl...

Page 33: ...ereo Dolby Pro Logic II Movie Dolby Pro Logic II Music Dolby Pro Logic II Matrix Dolby Pro Logic User Controlled Dolby Digital 2 0 Prologic Stereo Dolby Pro Logic II Movie Dolby Pro Logic II Music Dolby Pro Logic II Matrix Dolby Pro Logic User Controlled Dolby Digital EX Dolby Digital 5 1 Dolby Digital EX User Controlled DTS Digital Surround DTS 5 1 DTS ES Matrix User Controlled DTS ES Matrix 6 1 ...

Page 34: ...used to adjust the gain of the center channel Refer to DTS Neo 6 Cinema and DTS Neo 6 Music on page 4 Panorama This control extends the front stereo image to include the surround speakers for an exciting wraparound effect with side wall imaging It is particularly effective for recordings that have strong left or right channel elements in the mix as these are detected and accentuated by the panoram...

Page 35: ... and Dimension settings are only used in Prologic II music mode Graphic EQ This tab lets you specify how many 0 3 or 5 of the six available filters for each speaker will function like a standard graphic equalizer with fixed frequencies and settable gain attenuation only and how many the remainder will function as parametric equalizers with settable frequency gain bandwidth and filter type If you s...

Page 36: ...e purpose of achieving a flat response is to remove all unwanted audio conditions in the equipment and listening environment before making adjustments to satisfy the user s personal listening preferences For each speaker in the system up to eight you can set the gain bandwidth and filter type at up to six different frequencies in the spectrum for each of the five preset listening modes Use the Fil...

Page 37: ...ple zip The program is supplied designed to work with a Crestron TPS 4500 touchpanel and a 2 Series processor If your system uses a different touchpanel convert the program for that touchpanel Preparation In preparation for running the Example Program do the following 1 Verify that all the necessary procedures detailed in Setup on page 9 have been completed 2 Verify that communication setup proced...

Page 38: ... source and decoding mode For example the DYNAMIC RANGE selections MIN STD and MAX shown in the illustration apply the indicated amount of compression for Dolby Digital sources as follows MIN provides the highest compression ratio bringing dynamic range close to that of a TV broadcast STD provides the dynamic range recommended by sound engineers for general home viewing MAX provides the full dynam...

Page 39: ...r if present The distinction between large and small speakers here is their ability to provide effective sound in the low frequency range 120 Hz and below not their physical size Speakers designated as large will receive low frequency signals Low frequency signals appearing in channels with speakers designated as small will be filtered out and routed to the subwoofer Check the frequency range rati...

Page 40: ...s reach the listener s ears at exactly the same time Enter the delays from 0 to 15 milliseconds for each speaker by using a Real Time Analyzer RTA equipped to give a millisecond value from the time the sound was produced to the time it reaches the listener s position One example of such a device is the Audio Controls Iasys RTA Use the NOISE GENERATOR buttons to select the noise source The default ...

Page 41: ... SHELF LOW PASS HIGH PASS or BANDPASS 4 Press the GAIN k and j buttons to set the gain from 20dB to 20dB in 0 5dB increments 5 Press the FREQ k and j buttons to set the center frequency to 20Hz 40Hz 80Hz 160Hz 320Hz 640Hz 1280Hz 2560Hz 5120Hz or 10KHz 6 Press the B WIDTH k and j buttons to set the bandwidth in octaves to 0 10 0 14 0 20 0 28 0 40 0 56 1 00 1 40 2 00 or 2 80 In the GRAPHIC EQ sectio...

Page 42: ...se outputs The OUTPUT B CONTROLS section affects only the signals to OUTPUT B The BASS TREBLE and BALANCE controls are initially set to their middle positions the VOLUME control is set to its zero position The three buttons at the bottom provide both electronic and relay mute control of all outputs and a standard loudness selection that provides emphasized treble and bass The electronic mute reduc...

Page 43: ...l software crestron com Do not forward any queries to this address Instead refer to Further Inquiries on page51 for assistance Setup is easy thanks to Crestron s Windows based programming software The following are recommended software version requirements for the PC SIMPL Windows version 2 04 1 1 or later with Library update 227 or later Crestron Database version 15 9 6 or later Crestron VisionTo...

Page 44: ...hat includes a C2N DAP8 Configuration Manager is where programmers build a Crestron control system by selecting hardware from the Device Library In Configuration Manager drag the PRO2 from the Control Systems folder of the Device Library and drop it in the upper pane of the System Views The PRO2 with its associated communication ports is displayed in the System Views upper pane PRO2 System View Th...

Page 45: ...cally changes NET ID values of a device added to a program if a duplicate device or a device with the same default NET ID already exists in the program Always ensure that the hardware and software settings of the NET ID match For NET ID hardware setting details refer to Identity Code on page 10 C2N DAP8 Symbols in Programming Manager Programming Manager is where programmers program a Creston contr...

Page 46: ...S CTS handshake signals The tables below list the inputs outputs and their functional description Input and outputs enclosed by brackets are optional Two Way Serial Driver Symbol Built in RS 232 Symbol Input Descriptions INPUT S FUNCTION S tx More advanced signal processing can be done through serial strings and the tx input line on the symbol enable If signal is present on this input it must be h...

Page 47: ...ed for volume bass and treble Refer to Slot 07 Audio Output B Controls on page 44 Analog audio that is sent to output B will also be sent to the C2N DAP8 s internal DSP digital signal processor if analog source is selected The DSP settings are controlled by the Surround Sound Decoder on slot 08 in some cases the programming of the Surround Sound Decoder may affect the Analog Audio Switch settings ...

Page 48: ... high while the Mono On input switches the audio setting from stereo to mono Analogs The Volume analog input sets the volume level from 0 to 100 which corresponds to a gain range of 80 to 20dB The other analog inputs control bass treble and balance settings relative to the 50 mark That is a Balance input with a value of 50 results in even distribution of audio between the left and right speakers 0...

Page 49: ...e functions are accessed through the commands and options in the Viewport menus Therefore for its effectiveness as a support and diagnostic tool the Crestron Viewport may be preferred over development tools when uploading programs and projects The following sections define how one would upload a SIMPL Windows program or upgrade the firmware of the C2N DAP8 However before attempting to upload or up...

Page 50: ...efer to the figure after this step From the Viewport menu select Setup Communications settings alternatively press Alt D to open the Port Settings window Setup Communications Settings Command 3 Select RS 232 as the connection type Verify that an available COM port COM 1 is shown after this step is selected and that all communication parameters and necessary options from the Port Settings window ar...

Page 51: ...tion in the respective Operations Guide for the control system Uploading a SIMPL Windows Program A control system source file has the extension smw A compiled SIMPL Windows file has the extension spz for a 2 Series control system The SIMPL Windows file can be uploaded to the control system using SIMPL Windows or via the Crestron Viewport Upload via SIMPL Windows 1 Start SIMPL Windows 2 Select File...

Page 52: ...L modules only the SIMPL Program check box will be enabled If it does contain SIMPL modules then the SIMPL Program s check box will also be enabled Select one or both check boxes and then click Send Program to begin the transfer NOTE Refer to the respective Operations Guide for the control system for details about the other fields shown on the Send Program window Send Program Window 4 To verify th...

Page 53: ...teps 1 Make sure that Communication Settings that begins on page 45 has been performed NOTE It is possible to communicate with the C2N DAP8 directly from a PC using the Viewport and an STCP 501 interface cable DB9 to RJ11 Use this method if you are uploading upgrading only to a C2N DAP8 that is already installed and you do not need to communicate to any other devices on the network or uploading up...

Page 54: ...P files The uploading process would be the same except that it will be important to load the accompanying upg file first and then upload the DSP files Problem Solving Troubleshooting The following table provides corrective action for possible trouble situations If further assistance is required please contact a Crestron customer service representative C2N DAP8 Troubleshooting TROUBLE POSSIBLE CAUS...

Page 55: ...ns Guide you cannot locate specific information or have questions please take advantage of Crestron s award winning customer service team in your area Dial one of the following numbers In the US and Canada call Crestron s corporate headquarters at 1 888 CRESTRON 1 888 273 7876 In Europe call Crestron International at 32 15 50 99 50 In Asia call Crestron Asia at 852 2341 2016 In Latin America call ...

Page 56: ...ese modules However they are described in this Appendix for those advanced programmers who wish to program them in SIMPL Windows Slot 08 Surround Sound Decoder The Surround Sound Decoder is a digital signal processor DSP built into slot 08 of the C2N DAP8 surround sound processor The DSP can be programmed via SIMPL Windows and or Crestron s Digital Audio Tools software The Surround Sound Decoder s...

Page 57: ...Crestron C2N DAP8 Digital Audio Processor Operations Guide DOC 8186 Digital Audio Processor C2N DAP8 53 C2N DAP8 Surround Sound Decoder Digital Inputs and Outputs ...

Page 58: ...Digital Audio Processor Crestron C2N DAP8 54 Digital Audio Processor C2N DAP8 Operations Guide DOC 8186 C2N DAP8 Surround Sound Decoder Analog Inputs and Outputs ...

Page 59: ...high To generate noise the DSP stops decoding and enters noise generation mode This means that the previous source needs to be manually re selected after noise generation is complete Mode_Trim I When high this function stores the volume volume trims and LFE trim values such that they are applied only to whichever decoding mode is currently running This allows the volume and gain settings for a CD ...

Page 60: ...l source when the C2N DAP8 is processing an analog signal Left_Active through LFE_Active O When high indicates the presence of a signal coming in to the decoder on the corresponding channel This does not necessarily correspond directly to the physical outputs of the C2N DAP8 Surr_Active refers to the presence of a surround channel such as with a Pro Logic Encoded source while Back_Active indicates...

Page 61: ...e the DYN_Range inputs described before offer adequate control of compression ratios Sub_Limit Sub_Limit_FB I O Sets the peak limit or maximum output level of the subwoofer The peak level is adjustable within a range of 25dB to 0dB Values more negative than 24 0dB disable peak limiting the default setting LFE_Trim LFE_Trim_FB I O Sets the amount of gain to the LFE or Low Frequency Effects channel ...

Page 62: ...mode the user interface should use the feedback from the C2N DAP8 to indicate the current mode PL2_Width PL2_Dimension I In Dolby Pro Logic II Music Mode and only in that mode several options may be selected PL2 Width PL2 Dimension and Panorama Valid values for PL2_Width range from 0 to 7 Valid values for PL2_Dimension range from 0 for 3 to 6 for 3 Panorama is defined within the list of digital in...

Page 63: ...peakers as well as the LFE crossover frequency the digital output signals report the selections Alternatively the speakers can be configured via Crestron s Digital Audio Tools software with no programming in SIMPL Windows C2N DAP8 Speaker Settings Module Slot 09 Sub Slot 2 Full Parametric EQ Controls Symbol The Full Parametric EQ Controls symbol allows you to define the characteristics of the para...

Page 64: ...gh Recall_PRE5 DI These inputs offer a simpler way to recall a preset directly Preset _FB will be updated thus Store_PRE will store the last preset recalled Filter_Channel Filter_Channels cont d AI Selects the digital output channel as follows Filter_Channel Value Left Front 1 Right Front 2 Left Surround 3 Right Surround 4 Left Back 5 Right Back 6 Center 7 Subwoofer 8 No channel 0 Filter_Band AI E...

Page 65: ...s expressed in octaves Although bandwidth applies only to the peaking EQ filters the CN2 DAP8 can derive Q or slope from bandwidth to control the sharpness of high pass low pass and shelf filters Use of uniform units permits clean transitions between filter types such as from peaking EQ to lowpass For peaking EQ lowpass and highpass bandwidths in the range of 0 02 to 2 0 are appropriate For the sh...

Page 66: ...The symbol s input and output signals are as follows Preset store recall signals Digital inputs Store_EQ Recall_EQ Recall_EQ1 through Recall_EQ10 Analog input Preset Analog output Preset _FB Trim Values Analog inputs EQ_1 through EQ_6 Analog outputs EQ_1_FB through EQ_6_FB Operation of the module is described following the symbol illustration C2N DAP8 Graphic EQ Controls Module The C2N DAP8 provid...

Page 67: ...uts Alternatively a rising edge of a Recall_EQ 1 through 10 input will recall that trim preset The EQ inputs adjust the gains of the 6 filters thus EQ_1 corresponds to filter 1 EQ_2 corresponds to filter 2 and so forth The gains are adjustable within a range of 10dB to 5dB and are applied equally to 7 of the 8 channels the subwoofer channel is excluded All trim band values propagate immediately to...

Page 68: ...ponents are covered for 90 days batteries and incandescent lamps are not covered This warranty extends to products purchased directly from CRESTRON or an authorized CRESTRON dealer Purchasers should inquire of the dealer regarding the nature and extent of the dealer s warranty if any CRESTRON shall not be liable to honor the terms of this warranty if the product has been used in any application ot...

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Page 72: ...Crestron Electronics Inc Operations Guide DOC 8186 15 Volvo Drive Rockleigh NJ 07647 06 03 Tel 888 CRESTRON Fax 201 767 7576 Specifications subject to www crestron com change without notice ...

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