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Televic TCS5500, Руководство по установке

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Appendix E 

Installation manual to TCS5500 

Appendix E 

● 101 

 

14-p flat cable 

Flat  cable  to  connect  a  voting  panel,  with  DCS  interface,  to  a 
channel  selector.  This  cable  exchanges  information  about  LEDs 
and pressed buttons

.   

 

Connector 1 Connector 2  Function 

14 pos micro 

match connector, 

male 

14 pos micro 

match connector, 

male 

 

1

 

1 

GND

 

2

 

2 

Button 1

 

3 

3 

Button 2 

4 

4 

Button 3 

5 

5 

Button 4 

6 

6 

Button 5 

7 

7 

Led 1 

8 

8 

Led 2 

9 

9 

Led 3 

10 

10 

Led 4 

11 

11 

Led 5 

12 

12 

Led 6 

13 

13 

Led 7 

14 

14 

VCC 

B1

B2

B3

B4

B5

L1

L2

L3

L4

L5

L6

L7

 

Fig.: VFB5500, buttons and led numbering 

6-p flat cable 

Flat cable to connect the card reader in a voting panel, with badge 
and with a DCS interface, to a channel selector.   

 

Cable 

Connector 1 Connector 2 

Function 

14 pos flat cable 

6 pos micro 

match connector, 

male 

6 pos micro 

match connector, 

male 

 

 

1 

1

 

VCC 

 

2 

2

 

CLK IN 

 

3 

3 

DATA IN 

 

4 

4 

DATA OUT CR 

 

5 

5 

SW CR 

 

6 

6 

GND 

 

Содержание TCS5500

Страница 1: ...Installation manual to TCS5500 Televic NV SA...

Страница 2: ...ic or mechanical for any purpose without the express written permission of Televic NV Copyright 2002 Televic NV All rights reserved Title Installation Manual to TCS5500 Author DIV EVC Date 13 09 2011...

Страница 3: ...uracy of the information However the information in this manual is supplied without warranty either express or implied Neither the authors Televic NV SA nor its dealers or distributors will be held li...

Страница 4: ......

Страница 5: ...tional 6 The technology used 7 Power Supply 7 An example 7 PS5500 8 Some important data 10 TMS room equipment 11 Delegate controller interface INT5500 11 Digital Signal Splitter SPL5525 13 Table top u...

Страница 6: ...zing the microphone system 49 Choosing the conference mode 50 Max number of simultaneously active microphones 52 Adjusting the volume settings of the loudspeaker 52 Adjusting the audio settings for th...

Страница 7: ...cial configurations 83 Appendix B Camera Control Protocol 87 Overview 87 Commands 87 Examples 88 Appendix C Operator Desk Protocol 91 Overview 91 Commands 92 Examples 93 Appendix D Messenger Control p...

Страница 8: ...nection cable 103 Connectors 104 Cable check 110 Appendix F 114 EU5500 SPL connections 114 Extension unit 8 branches 115 Extension unit 4 loops 116 Redundancy options for EU5500 SPL5525 and Confidea L...

Страница 9: ...t close to a wall These openings are necessary for ventilation They ensure a reliable operation and protect the installation from overheating Route the power and system cables in a way so that they ar...

Страница 10: ...Applicable standards ISO 2603 1998 IEC 914 IEC 268 EN 55013 EN 55020 EN 60065 EN 55103 1 2 IEC60914...

Страница 11: ...tions technology and offers its users a series of important features clear sound reproduction a full Digital System Flexibility in design and integration extremely easy to operate microphone units aud...

Страница 12: ...nsists of the following components TMS5500 microphone system TIS5500 interpreter system CPU5500 central unit rack system cables and if required the software control suite for the conference system It...

Страница 13: ...sts of interpreter units of which three different products are available interpreter equipment ID5500 interpreter desk PIO5500 programmable input output panel DIOP500 digital input output panel An ext...

Страница 14: ...onference manager can control the entire conference via a PC if he uses the optional software control suite The software control suite provides several extra functions next to the functionality provid...

Страница 15: ...ntial criteria need to be taken into account before the installation of the TCS5500 system takes place the power consumption of the system must be estimated by using the appropriate power calculation...

Страница 16: ...to calculate this The program asks some details the power supply the number of interface units the connected devices the branch and the distance between the interface units The program calculates the...

Страница 17: ...is available at the rear of the frame six female Phoenix connectors are provided at the rear of the PS5500 1U to branch off the 48 V four female Phoenix connectors are provided at the rear of the PS5...

Страница 18: ...he total length of the system cable Longer cable lengths will limit this maximum number ref power calculation A mix of INT5500 s and SPL5525 s on the same branch is allowed Maximum 10 interpreter unit...

Страница 19: ...n be combined to satisfy the user demands Some possible connection configurations are graphically summarized in appendix A The interface unit has two RJ 45 shielded connector sockets labeled IN and OU...

Страница 20: ...drawing below Weight Ca 950 g Color Stainless steel Housing Metal Part Number 71 67 5046 Fig INT5500 dimensions The interface units can be mounted screwed at the bottom of the tables However when a w...

Страница 21: ...to the TMS bus of the CPU5500 Each SPL5525 has 4 ports to which 20 devices can be connected in daisy chain A mix of the above mentioned devices on one branch is allowed An SPL5525 requires an external...

Страница 22: ...er the hook The bottom of the circuit board is showed on the picture below Notice the two RJ45 connectors to connect the handset in the TMS network and the two rotary DIP switches The switch on the le...

Страница 23: ...the microphone input of the interface with a black dark gray cable Jumper adjustment PB1 No jumper no connection between chassis microphone and the electric mass This is the default setting Jumper 1...

Страница 24: ...n be used to adjust the microphone amplification Switch1 Switch2 Amplification dBr 0 0 11 20 8dB 0 0 1 4 12 2dB 8 1 0 4 12 2dB 8 1 1 2 8 9dB 11 The lower cut off frequency can be set using switches 3...

Страница 25: ...ing Panel with 5 buttons and badge At the bottom you find an 8 pin shielded modular RJ 45 connector a connection is made with the DCS output of the interface with a DCS cable Custom built versions are...

Страница 26: ...5096 71 67 5097 WARNING PERSONNEL ONLY T 3 15 A L 230 V T 7 A L 115 V HAZARD AUTHORIZED ELECTRICAL LAN COM 1 KEYB VGA AUX OUT 6 AUX OUT 5 CONTROL IN 1 CONTROL OUT AUX OUT CONTROL AUX OUT 3 AUX OUT 4 1...

Страница 27: ...unting Dimensions H x W 50 x 135 mm Cut out Dimensions H x W Approx 45 x 120 mm Weight Ca 140 g Color Matt black Front Plate Steel Part Number 71 67 5061 71 67 5060 71 67 5064 71 67 5065 71 67 5069 71...

Страница 28: ...late Steel Part Number DCSL 5500 Part Number ODCSL 5500 71 67 5051 71 68 5051 Fig dimensional drawing DCS5500 DCSL5500 DCSA5500 O LED DCSA5500 Mounting Flush mounting Dimensions H x W 135 x 50 mm Cut...

Страница 29: ...OUT CONTROL AUX OUT 3 AUX OUT 4 11 12 3 4 AUX OUT 1 AUX OUT 2 10 9 2 1 8 MAX 5V 7 c 15 5 6 14 13 AUX OUT 1 USB FDD COM 2 LPT1 AUX OUT CONTROL AUX IN 2 2 AUX IN 1 3 1 115 230 V PORT 5 TMS PORT 1 PORT...

Страница 30: ...h a 1 5 m connection cable with a 3 5 mm mono jack connector As an option hard shells are available to replace the soft ear pads TEL 10 The TEL10 professional dynamic headphones were especially develo...

Страница 31: ...card CC5500 allows for easy personalization of the voting procedure They can be customized as follows per min 100 pieces only a serial number a company or congress centre logo the delegate s name and...

Страница 32: ...UX IN 2 2 AUX IN 1 3 1 115 230 V PORT 5 TMS PORT 1 PORT 2 PORT 4 COUPLING PORT 3 CLK INFO TIS PORT 8 PORT 6 COUPLING COUPLING PORT 7 PORT 10 PORT 9 7 3 5 A 50 60 Hz Fig Branched network The RJ 45 IN c...

Страница 33: ...TRICAL LAN COM 1 KEYB VGA AUX OUT 6 AUX OUT 5 CONTROL IN 1 CONTROL OUT AUX OUT CONTROL AUX OUT 3 AUX OUT 4 11 12 3 4 AUX OUT 1 AUX OUT 2 10 9 2 1 8 MAX 5V 7 c 15 5 6 14 13 AUX OUT 1 USB FDD COM 2 LPT1...

Страница 34: ...e RS232 connectors can be used to connect the CPU5500 with a camera control system or an operator desk 18 TMS Digital bus with 4x RJ 45 connectors Port 1 4 19 RJ 45 Ethernet connector can be used to c...

Страница 35: ...se elements can by this means be connected to our system 2 Digital I O board DIO This board is used when the user wants to have a digital audio input and or output available Thru the operational contr...

Страница 36: ...nit EU5500 L can be used With the extension unit 4 loops are created The extension unit is connected with the cental unit via a regular TMS or TIS port and a clockport The number of extension units is...

Страница 37: ...The output level is according underneath table 10 dBFS digital Analog output dBV dBu mV 2 4 4 6 1300 AMP Analog monitoring panel This panel allows you to listen to a particular channel with the headph...

Страница 38: ...able A B C D E F G H SELEC TED ON LINE Ethernet connection cable Ethernet switch Fig Operation with multiple control PC s Ethernet based network WARNING PERSONNEL ONLY T 3 15 A L 230 V T 7 A L 115 V H...

Страница 39: ...Interface initialize the microphone system set the operating microphone mode adjust the audio settings for the loudspeaker activate and configure the auxiliary inputs and outputs resetting the microp...

Страница 40: ...Digital Conference Interpretation System The lock functionality It is possible to lock the menu of the central unit Suppose that you configured the central unit to your desires and you do not want an...

Страница 41: ...ymbol A slave central unit has no volume bar Additionally the STATUS LED is flashing The menu buttons The jog wheel ENTER and EXIT button allow you to navigate through the operating menu The function...

Страница 42: ...saved with a confirmation question Only the delegate loudspeaker volume is an exception and will always be saved when changed In the Interpretation menu an explicit save must be performed after chang...

Страница 43: ...ence menu Part 2 of 2 The Interpreter menu Part 1 of 4 The Interpreter menu Part 2 of 4 The Interpreter menu Part 3 of 4 The Interpreter menu Part 4 of 4 The AUX OUT IN menu Part 1 of 2 The AUX OUT IN...

Страница 44: ...Select Select CPU5500 1 Conference CPU5500 2 Interpretation CPU5500 3 Aux In Out CPU5500 4 System CPU5500 5 Menu Language Aux Out 1 Volume 00 XLR 00 Channel 00 Status OFF Select Aux Out 6 Volume 00 H...

Страница 45: ...TCS5500 Page 37 The conference menu 1 of 2...

Страница 46: ...Page 38 The conference menu 2 of 2...

Страница 47: ...TCS5500 Page 39 The interpretation menu 1 of 4...

Страница 48: ...Advanced 4 Key Speed Repeat Key Speed Repeat 05 05 Enter Exit Enter Select Advanced 5 Relay Option Relay Option Off Transfert Advanced 6 LCD Font LCD Font Small Font Enter Enter Enter Enter Exit Exit...

Страница 49: ...n Slow Down Button Disabled Enter Exit Select Advanced 13 Intercom Mode Intercom Disabled Offset 00 Advanced 14 Intercom Level Intercom Level Mic Sens 00 LS HP Mode Fixed LS HP Level 00 Enter Enter En...

Страница 50: ...Page 42 The interpretation menu 4 of 4...

Страница 51: ...TCS5500 Page 43 The AUX IN OUT menu 1 of 2...

Страница 52: ...Page 44 The AUX IN OUT menu 2 of 2...

Страница 53: ...TCS5500 Page 45 The System menu 1 of 2...

Страница 54: ...Page 46 The System menu 2 of 2...

Страница 55: ...TCS5500 Page 47 The Language menu 1 of 1...

Страница 56: ...function key is a shortcut to the menu option that handles the Aux Out 1 characteristics This is a frequently chosen option With the resulting screen the Volume of the output can be changed the outpu...

Страница 57: ...ton the units will be initialized starting at port 1 of the CPU5500 If the order in which the conference units are initialized is important then you are advised to use the manual init When the manual...

Страница 58: ...ite This mode is No request Without a PC you can use the With request With request no clear Direct Access FIFO Group 1 4 and Override With a PC and the software control suite all the operating modes c...

Страница 59: ...put their microphone in request mode the first applicant gets the floor when the delegate who has the floor turns off his active microphone or when the chairman or conference operator grants the part...

Страница 60: ...microphone It is possible to adjust the automatic gain reduction the limiter gain and micro couples Turning the wheel button will automatically change the audio setting The automatic gain reduction i...

Страница 61: ...and the limiter setting Possible values of the limiter setting are Gate ON limiter range is 32 dB with noise gate 4 dB Gate OFF limiter range is 32 dB without noise gate 4 dB limiter range is 28 dB w...

Страница 62: ...hone options are the Options menu item The menu item contains a number of menu items which allows the conference system to be checked and to adjust some general settings Two test modes can check the s...

Страница 63: ...restart the test The Test Units option is useful when you initialized the delegate units and you want to test if there were all initialized correctly The delegate units will only activate when they a...

Страница 64: ...u Press ENTER choose System Press ENTER again now choose CPU Defaults Press ENTER Press ENTER again to load the default values To go back to the main menu repeatedly press the EXIT button until you re...

Страница 65: ...on will suffice The manual initialization is most handy when you want the delegate units numbered in a desired sequence The automatic initialization is self explanatory to initiate it execute the foll...

Страница 66: ...the wheel to set the light ring in Blink in Request mode Press ENTER to save this setting Working with delegate conference units Talking The most important button on a conference unit is the MICRO bu...

Страница 67: ...d Once the PRIOR button is released the conference can proceed again in its normal operation The interpreter menu overview Next to the conferencing functionalities of the TCS5500 Digital Conference In...

Страница 68: ...ter desk configuration select a booth and alter the settings for that booth The settings that can be altered are the Language the Auto floor and the B channel When you alter the settings of a booth yo...

Страница 69: ...r to the Override mode of the Mode between booths The only difference here is that the override happens on a per booth basis Toggle Override is similar to the Toggle Override of the Mode between booth...

Страница 70: ...el Additionally a specific language can be set as autofloor By pressing the F1 key the language is set as autofloor language and the letters AF will appear next to the language Booth configuration The...

Страница 71: ...iginal floor language is well known to all interpreters and they listen to the original floor speech for translation The translations are then fed to the language distribution channels so that the con...

Страница 72: ...anslation of the floor speech as auto floor to all other interpreter desks His translation is therefore fed to the English language distribution channel The incoming channel AUTOFLOOR indicator is act...

Страница 73: ...oose the Add Unit menu item The red signal rings of the interpreter desks that have not been initialized before will now start flashing and they will all show the initialization screen You do not have...

Страница 74: ...terpretation is possible LCD font this option allows to change the font size of the characters displayed on the LCD screen of the interpreter desk Language overview this option allows to enable or dis...

Страница 75: ...ed booth number When Individual Nr is selected then each desk has its own number There is also the possibility to set an Offset value for the channel number Intercom level this option allows to set th...

Страница 76: ...1 Configuration 2 Channel Config 7 Specify the A Ch Language channel for each booth via 2 Interpretation 1 Configuration 1 Booth Config 8 Specify the B Ch Language channel for each booth desk via 2 I...

Страница 77: ...e level will change as the jog wheel is being turned However if you want to save the settings so that the system always booths with a certain volume level on that port then use the Preset Save Preset...

Страница 78: ...of the local floor so also present on Aux Out 1 External Equalizer To avoid disturbing feedback or to equalize the audio signals it is possible to interconnect external equipment to the central unit...

Страница 79: ...or desk is connected to the CPU5500 central unit then the central unit needs to know how to connect and communicate with these systems CAMERA The camera options are as follows 1 Mode switch camera mod...

Страница 80: ...port settings such as COM port COM2 and Baudrate 19200 SAVE Any change to the peripheral configuration must be saved into the memory of the CPU5500 so that each time the system is rebooted the configu...

Страница 81: ...ory settings This requires a reboot of the central unit Init Mode This functionality has not yet been implemented and is therefore not in use Version The version of the CPU5500 operational software an...

Страница 82: ...0 menu There are 6 languages to choose from English French Dutch German Spanish Italian The operator of the central unit can choose his desired language on the CPU5500 central unit to ease up the conf...

Страница 83: ...e microphone number in the field under the Delete Reserve button The deleted microphones connected to the new interface start blinking Now push off the microphones in the correct order first the micro...

Страница 84: ...and loudspeakers Diagnostic Info CPU check the LED status on the CPU logging Log mode 42 gives a list of what is connected on the TMS network INT in order CPU5500 Log mode 41 gives a list of what the...

Страница 85: ...ot in sync with the central unit b The system starts with the green request LEDs of the TMS5500 system blink 3 time shortly a pause and then again 3 times blinking This means there the interfaces do n...

Страница 86: ......

Страница 87: ...eplace the fuse The specifications for the replacement fuse are shown above the fuse holder Delegate unit does not work Check if the system cable between the central unit and the interfaces is defecti...

Страница 88: ......

Страница 89: ...e same port number as the corresponding microphone Then the correct loudspeaker will be disabled if the corresponding microphone is activated It is not necessary to use the same configuration on each...

Страница 90: ...anel have a DCS interface and can be connected in combination with a DCS unit using flat cables The DCS unit is directly connected to a DCS port of the INT5500 Voting panels can be equipped with a car...

Страница 91: ...dspeaker is connected to port 1 and the other to port 3 When so configured in the operational control suite software the microphones connected to MIC port 1 and 2 of the INT5500 will mute the LS5500 c...

Страница 92: ...two DML5500 DML5500 slave microphones is switched on The DML5500 DML5500 slave microphones have no chairman functionality Some valid configurations are DCS1 DCS2 DCS3 DCS4 MIC1 MIC2 MIC3 MIC4 LS5500 L...

Страница 93: ...irst assigned number N DML5500 slave assigned secondly number N 1 DML5500 slave first assigned number N DML5500 assigned secondly number N 1 DM5500 first assigned Push and release the DML5500 micropho...

Страница 94: ......

Страница 95: ...one through the CPU user interface or through the operational control suite software CONFSYS An overview of the settings of the communication port for the camera control Data bits 8 Parity None Stop b...

Страница 96: ...delegate or the microphone of the president is activated then a command is sent to the camera control Whenever an active microphone is deactivated another command is sent to the camera control The mi...

Страница 97: ...with number 0003 is active On a synchronization check the synchronization message will look like this S00030116 Suppose now that the delegate microphones with number 0002 and 0004 are also active On a...

Страница 98: ......

Страница 99: ...d will be described shortly The control panel must be connected to the CPU5500 central unit through a RS232 connection The appropriate port to use on the CPU5500 central unit is COM1 or COM2 The choic...

Страница 100: ...RC The acknowledgement char ACK has a hexadecimal value of 0x06 We will adopt a certain notation to explain the messages sent All separate entities in a message are represented between curly brackets...

Страница 101: ...e control panel ACK The commands sent by the control panel and received by the central unit Activate deactivate a microphone with number 1 T Microphone number 3 CRC 4 Reset all microphones 1 R CRC 4 A...

Страница 102: ...es should be turned of then the following command is sent to the control panel from the central unit 1E000D6 The control panel must acknowledge this command by sending the ACK character back to the ce...

Страница 103: ...ge control panel which identifies the originator Now the conference operator can activate and deactivate the microphone that put the request using the ack respectively clear button on the messenger pa...

Страница 104: ......

Страница 105: ...rface units with these types of black cable There are cables of 1m 2 5m 3m and 5m Cable Connector Function 5P Black TEK41 RJ48 10p 10c 10 contacts loaded FTP 26 AWG 71 67 5501 71 67 5502 71 67 5503 71...

Страница 106: ...e 5 DATA Green 6 GND Brown White 7 HP OUT Brown 8 HP OUT Connection Cable Shielded for ID5500 INT5500 SPL5525 SPL5501 Combi panels The system cables are needed to interconnect the interfaces INT5500 s...

Страница 107: ...Blue 6 5 5 UPL Green 7 6 6 DWNL White Brown 8 7 7 GND 48V Brown 9 8 8 GND 48V 10 Not loaded CLK Cable EU5500 This is the cable to connect the clock in the CPU5500 to an EU5500 This cable has a black...

Страница 108: ...E 4PR RJ45 10p 10c contact position RJ45 10p 10c 8 contacts loaded RJ45 10p 10c 8 contacts loaded FTP 26 AWG CAT 6 71 67 5105 71 67 5110 71 67 5120 71 67 5130 1 Not loaded White orange 2 1 1 terminati...

Страница 109: ...1 3 3 Button 2 4 4 Button 3 5 5 Button 4 6 6 Button 5 7 7 Led 1 8 8 Led 2 9 9 Led 3 10 10 Led 4 11 11 Led 5 12 12 Led 6 13 13 Led 7 14 14 VCC B1 B2 B3 B4 B5 L1 L2 L3 L4 L5 L6 L7 Fig VFB5500 buttons a...

Страница 110: ...8V Yellow green 2 2 EARTH Brown 3 3 48V Ethernet Connection Cable The Ethernet network is constructed with these kind of cables The CPU5500 Control PC s RSU5500 etc must all be connected on the same E...

Страница 111: ...Connection cable This cable can be used to connect to a camera control system The schema of the cable described above is actually a null modem cable This means that a standard null modem cable can be...

Страница 112: ...alanced outputs are available as well as 3 reserved control lines 3 pin XLR connector This connector is the most common one to be used for professional audio XLRM connectors are used for the analog ou...

Страница 113: ...3 pin XLR socket female 1 2 3 Fig 3 pin XLR connector male 1 2 3 Fig 3 pin XLR socket male 1 2 3 Fig 3 pin XLR connector female 5 pin XLR connector This connector is used to connect the TGM404 or TGM...

Страница 114: ...51 and Tel 10 both have a 3 5 mm mono phone jack 1 2 3 4 5 Fig 3 5mm phone jack female Pin assignment 3 5 mm stereo jack female headphone 1 N C 2 HP 3 N C 4 HP 5 N C Pin assignment 3 5 mm stereo jack...

Страница 115: ...ut a channel selector a direct connection to the INT5500 can be made using a RJ45 connector Note however that another type of voting panel has to be used voting panel with INT interface Pin assignment...

Страница 116: ...ale SUBD 9 connector This connector is used for operation with an operator desk or camera control system Fig DB 9 connector female Fig DB 9 connector male Pin assignment CPU5500 Pin 1 N C Pin 2 RX Pin...

Страница 117: ...ions Fig S VGA connector Parallel Port connector This DB 25 connector is used for service applications Fig DB 25 connector female Phoenix contact A phoenix contact is used to provide the EU5500 and FO...

Страница 118: ...3 Fig Euro main connector Cable check The cabling of the TMS and TIS network can be checked with a cable tester for example the CTT5500 and CTR5500 In the following the test procedure will be explain...

Страница 119: ...start test a SUBD 9 connector Note that the TMS5500 and TIS5500 network uses RJ45 connectors in stead of the SUBD 9 connectors which were used in previous versions of the Televic conference system The...

Страница 120: ...able testers to check the complete line 2 Turn the slide switch of the cable tester transmitter on 3 If everything is OK the LEDs of the power lines are on LEDs of lines 6 7 flash or LEDs of lines 8 9...

Страница 121: ...0 0 0 0 Signal line 1 Short circuit with mass S min 1 K K K 1 1 1 1 S norm 0 P P P 1 1 1 1 Signal line 1 short circuit with signal line 2 S min K K K K 1 1 1 1 S norm P P P P 1 1 1 1 S S norm 0 0 P P...

Страница 122: ...Page 114 Appendix F EU5500 SPL connections...

Страница 123: ...8V T 2A 5x20MM PORT ENABLE ID PORT PORT PORT PORT RESET INFO EXT 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 POWER CLOCK OUT IN OUT IN 71 61 5051 EU5500 8 branches SPL5525 INT5500 SPL5525 Confidea L in loop SPL5525 SW 1 05 No lo...

Страница 124: ...n Loop2 out in Loop1 OUT IN CLOCK OUT IN INFO EXTERNAL IN OUT SPL5525 INT5500 SPL5525 Confidea L in loop SPL5525 SW 1 05 No loops allowed SPL5525 Not compatible with SDC8200 units Loop dual branche fu...

Страница 125: ...dea L in loop SPL5525 SW 1 05 Loop dual branche functionality only effective if no other delegate unit types then Confidea L are used in the loop SPL5525 Confidea L in loop SPL5525 SW 1 05 Redundancy...

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