GE JK1000 Technical Service Manual Download Page 22

Page: 22 / 89

GE Title or job number

11/26/2013

Control panels

Open door, remove 2 - T20 screws to access. Control panel

hooks over top of unit. Glass touch assembly can be unplugged

and set aside if further service is needed. The same is true on

the Machine control. On Tactile control, (shown below) panel is

just a cosmetic piece.

Back to T of C

T20 Screws

Summary of Contents for JK1000

Page 1: ...al Service Guide March 2013 2013 WALL OVENS 27 Single and double units 30 Single and double units JK1000 JT1000 JK3000 JT3000 JK3500 JT3500 JK5000 JT5000 JK5500 JT5500 PK7000 PT7050 PK7500 PT7550 PT9050 PT9550 ...

Page 2: ...sponsible for the interpretation of this information nor can it assume any liability in connection with its use WARNING To avoid personal injury disconnect power before servicing this product If electrical power is required for diagnosis or test purposes disconnect the power immediately after performing the necessary checks RECONNECT ALL GROUNDING DEVICES If grounding wires screws straps clips nut...

Page 3: ...3 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 ...

Page 4: ...initions Installation Oven Removal Doors Control panels F codes Accessing F codes T012 Service modes T012 Service modes Machine control JK1000 JT1000 T09 Control circuits and troubleshooting JT5000 T012 Control circuits and troubleshooting Machine Control Circuits and troubleshooting Components ...

Page 5: ...f 27 and 30 wall ovens Featuring larger oven cavities smaller height advanced convection operation LED notification lighting and remote enable on some of its models Servicing of these products has changed very little Service modes are available to assist technicians in the repair of these units Back to T of C ...

Page 6: ...not serviceable part Cavity racks Conventional ribs built into cavity panels Ladder racks Rack supports mounted to side panels Latch assembly New design enables door latch pawl to be unlatched if unit fails in LOCKED mode Note a 7 piece of brazing solder bent into L shape works very well to access latch pawl Be sure to put tape on tool to prevent scratching trim ...

Page 7: ...fication lighting LED light banks between control panel and upper oven door Provides quick easy visual confirmation of heating stages Use Care explanation Advanced convection Variable speed and reversible convection motor provides more consistent cooking and more even heating because of the top air flow duct Remote Enable Allows control over some oven functions by other devices e g Turning off all...

Page 8: ...TO12 glass TO12 glass TO12 tactile TO12 glass TO12 glass TO12 tactile TO9 PK7500 JK5500 PK7000 JK5000 JK3000 JK1000 Normal Convection Lights 27 models front view JK3500 ...

Page 9: ... TO12 glass TO12 tactile Machine Machine TO12 glass TO12 tactile TO9 PT9550 PT7550 JT5500 JT3500 PT9050 PT7050 JT5000 JT3000 JT1000 Advanced Convection Normal Convection Lights 30 models front view Notification Lights ...

Page 10: ...ecial Designator Color Designator Model Year Engineering Digit Color Code Fuel Type Blank Electric G Gas Model series 1 NON self clean models Model series 3 SELF CLEAN with TACTILE controls Model series 5 SELF CLEAN with GLASS TOUCH controls Model series 7 SELF CLEAN with GLASS TOUCH controls and REMOTE ENABLE PK only Model series 9 SELF CLEAN with GLASS TOUCH controls ADVANCED CONVECTION NOTIFICA...

Page 11: ...erally recommended when using this mode Convection Bake Multi Rack mode is intended for baking on multiple racks at the same time This mode uses heat primarily from the rear element but also heat from the upper and lower elements along with air movement from the convection fan to enhance cooking evenness Baking time might be slightly longer for multiple racks than what would be expected for a sing...

Page 12: ... broiled on a rack position farther from the broiler or by using Traditional Broil Lo or Convection Broil Lo Traditional Broil Hi 550 cycling temp The Traditional Broil Hi mode uses intense heat from the upper element to sear foods Use Broil Hi for thinner cuts of meat and or foods you prefer less done on the interior To use this mode press the Broil pad once under Traditional and then press Start...

Page 13: ...Convection and then press Start Monitor food closely to prevent over browning Feature only found on some models Proof Proof mode is designed for rising fermenting and proofing bread dough Press the Proof pad and then press Start Cover dough well to prevent drying out Bread will rise more rapidly than at room temperature Using a combination of cavity lights and intermittent convection fan operation...

Page 14: ...e and Roast Once pre heated it shuts off in Traditional Bake It runs CCW the rest of the cycle in Convection Bake and Convection Roast And CW is the steady state in Multi rack convection Bake The fan motor runs in a CCW direction and is the steady state of operation in Convection Broil modes Hi Low and Crisp For PT7000 and PT9000 series convection cavities ...

Page 15: ...en door will lock You cannot open the door during the 30 minute steam clean as this will decrease the steam clean performance Self Clean Mode Self clean uses very high temperatures to clean the oven interior The oven door will lock when using this feature Before operating the self clean cycle wipe up grease and soils from the oven Remove all items from the oven other than enameled dark color racks...

Page 16: ...Tactile Defines the type of input to control tactile controls are switches mounted to the front part of ERC and are covered with an overlay GLASS TOUCH A capacitive glass panel that transfers key pad touches to ERC or User interface board Connected by harness to T012 direct plug into MACHINE CONTROL board Thermal limit switch These temperature operated switches provide a safety back up in case of ...

Page 17: ...17 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 SWO install instructions wall and under counter ...

Page 18: ...18 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 DWO installation dimensions and rail install directions ...

Page 19: ...19 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 Pedestal rails spacers for GE sized cut out rails are not needed for competitors sized cut out Back to T of C Mounting screws Back to T of C ...

Page 20: ...r 2 Pull the hinge locks down toward the door frame to the unlocked position A tool such as a small flat blade screwdriver may be required 3 Firmly grasp both sides of the door at the top 4 Close door to the door removal position The door should be open approximately 3 with no obstruction above the door 5 Lift door up and out until both hinge arms are clear of the slots Back to T of C 30 lbs ...

Page 21: ...t the indentation of the hinge arm into the bottom edge of the hinge slot The notch in the hinge arm must be fully seated into the bottom of the slot Repeat for right side 3 Fully open the door If the door will not fully open the indentation is not seated correctly in the bottom edge of the slot 4 Push the hinge locks up against the front frame of the oven cavity to the locked position 5 Close the...

Page 22: ... 2 T20 screws to access Control panel hooks over top of unit Glass touch assembly can be unplugged and set aside if further service is needed The same is true on the Machine control On Tactile control shown below panel is just a cosmetic piece Back to T of C T20 Screws ...

Page 23: ...23 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 Control panels DWO tactile shown Mini Manual RJ45 screws Back to definitions ...

Page 24: ...24 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 Control panels User Interface rear view T012 Glass touch Connector harness to T012 control Machine Control RJ45 Communication plug Back to definitions ...

Page 25: ...25 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 PT9050 9550 Control panel rear view J2 J3 LED notification light boards User Interface board Wireless module remote J5 RJ45 ...

Page 26: ...ute timer transparent to the user shall be activated at power up During this time the Service Mode shall be entered by pressing and holding the 1 and 5 keys simultaneously for 3 seconds When the Service Mode is entered the word tESt shall appear in the time digits until it is superseded by the CRC or Software version or until the mode is canceled When the Service Mode is entered the current RTD te...

Page 27: ... on at the same time SELF CLEAN Energize the door lock motor and display the door lock status as it would in normal mode NOTE if the door lock is unlocked this key press shall lock the door and if the door lock is locked then the key press shall unlock it should not be ruled by the 10 second timer as other keys are CONVECTION BAKE Energize the convection element and the DLB relays if used 1 or 2 E...

Page 28: ... the time digits until it is superseded by the CRC or Software version or until the mode is canceled If a user presses the CLEAR OFF key the mode shall be canceled and the control shall reset When the Service Mode is entered the current RTD temperature shall appear in the temperature digits of each oven When the Service Mode is entered different keys shall be used to test different relay outputs T...

Page 29: ...ter 10 seconds of no key presses Press and holding the STEAM CLEAN button for 3 5 seconds will clear F codes COOK TIME Calculate and display the CRC checksum in the time digits CONVECTION BAKE Energize the convection element and the DLB relays 1 Energize the convection fan in the CCW direction NOTE if the 2 key has been pressed and the fan spinning in the CW direction the control will wait at leas...

Page 30: ...display when applicable CLEAR OFF Shall reset the control If a key is pressed while another load is already on the control shall first turn off the first load and then activate the new load i e User presses Bake and within 5 seconds the User presses Broil the control shall turn on the Bake and DLB from when the user first presses Bake until the user presses Broil then the control shall turn off th...

Page 31: ...31 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 F Codes T09 Back to T of C ...

Page 32: ...rol logic from the various INPUTS to the control Only a couple of codes are due to a defect in a control board Inputs Oven sensor latch switches meat probe keypanel cooling fan motor feedback and with the Machine control units communications between control and User Interface ...

Page 33: ...res 1 to 3 Lower oven wires 1 to 8 Check resistance of oven sensor circuit on ERC T012 at CN300 pin 1 to 3 W to W BK for upper oven F20 21 30 31 and pin 1 to 8 W to W R for lower oven F22 23 32 33 Sensor resistance f 100 f approx 1143Ω 140 f approx 1226Ω 180 f approx 1309Ω 220 f approx 1391Ω 260 f approx 1473Ω 300 f approx 1554Ω 350 f approx 1654Ω 370 f approx 1694Ω 400 f approx 1754Ω 430 f approx...

Page 34: ...n its machine control board connector J300 pins 1 to 2 W to W R F22 23 32 33 Sensor resistance f 100 f approx 1143Ω 140 f approx 1226Ω 180 f approx 1309Ω 220 f approx 1391Ω 260 f approx 1473Ω 300 f approx 1554Ω 350 f approx 1654Ω 370 f approx 1694Ω 400 f approx 1754Ω 430 f approx 1813Ω 450 f approx 1852Ω 470 f approx 1892Ω 500 f approx 1950Ω 550 f approx 2047Ω 600 f approx 2142Ω 650 f approx 2237Ω...

Page 35: ...probe installed Open circuit without probe installed Lower oven board pin 3 to 4 O W to GN should be 30k 50k Ω with probe installed Open circuit without probe installed F40 Upper meat probe circuit shorted F41 Lower oven meat probe circuit shorted Checks are below If any other resistance in circuit replace meat probe harness and receptacle ...

Page 36: ... loss of communications to lower machine control check connections and harness on J700 and J5 on User Interface F66 Indicates loss of communications to user interface check connections and harness on J3 J5 on User Interface and J700 on upper and lower machine controls In case of F6 check for status LED on each board if wiring good and NO indicator replace board that doesn t have flashing LED Upper...

Page 37: ...37 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 Keypanel T012 tactile F70 F71 F70 F71 are associated with the ERC detecting a continuous keypanel press verify overlay is not creased if ok replace ERC ...

Page 38: ...umber 11 26 2013 Keypanel T012 Glass touch F70 F79 F7 codes on these units will display two numbers F70 F79 are all associated with glass touch verify harness plugs and wires are seated properly If good replace Glass touch ...

Page 39: ...s board sees a stuck key other than START and Clear F7B Board sees a stuck START key F7C Upper CLEAR key stuck condition F7d Lower CLEAR key stuck condition F7E Glass touch COMMUNICATION failure F7F Glass touch Cyclic Redundancy Check failure CRC In most occurrences of a F7_ failure is within the glass touch and will most likely have to be replaced ...

Page 40: ...E Title or job number 11 26 2013 Other F codes ERC T012 F80 F81 F80 F81 These F codes are not associated with an input to the board it is this is an electronic problem internally within control Replace ERC ...

Page 41: ...e only F codes not associated with an input to the board are F80 F81 and F82 these are the result of an electronic problem internally in control Replace machine control associated with code F80 UPPER machine control F81 LOWER machine control F82 Interface data failure CRC Replace UI ...

Page 42: ...ow continuity from Y pin 6 common to BL pin 4 in UNLOCKED BAKE position and continuity from Y pin 6 to O pin 5 in LOCKED SELF CLEAN position Use UPPER readings for SINGLE ovens F codes associated with latch switches are F93 94 95 In order to check lock and unlock circuits from ERC its important to make sure doors are in closed position The reading for the lower lock circuit should show continuity ...

Page 43: ...t LOWER oven measure for resistance from PIN 1 to 2 Y W to O W on J900 Lower machine control board Should measure OPEN in all modes except SELF CLEAN To test latch switches and door position switch with latch in self clean position door locked With door closed and latch in self clean position there should be continuity between PIN 1 to 2 Y to O AND PIN 1 to 3 Y to BR tests door position switch for...

Page 44: ... is running slow F98 indicates the UPPER fan is running too fast F99 indicates the LOWER fan is running too fast The DC supply voltage to cooling fan boards can be checked on ERC at CN300 pin 1 W to pin 7 BK Feedback will be checked from pin 7 of CN300 BK to pin 1 of CN700 Bu for UPPER LOWER will be checked from pin 7 of CN300 BK to pin 3 of CN700 PR ...

Page 45: ...running slow F98 indicates the UPPER fan is running too fast F99 indicates the LOWER fan is running too fast If the cooling fans appear to be running at proper speed check the wiring connections on UPPER machine control board J900 There should be 5VDC between W pin 4 to BK pin 6 The LOWER can be checked on the same connections on LOWER machine control 5VDC W pin 4 to BK pin 6 Signal from cooling f...

Page 46: ...000 series only P200 DLB Broil Bake P200 Oven sensor and oven light circuit Bake relay yellow dot supplies L1 to bake element Broil relay purple dot supplies L1 to broil element DLB red and orange dots supplies L2 to both elements Back to definitions Back to T of C ...

Page 47: ...47 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 Troubleshooting all AC circuits Only in circuit for end of line test ...

Page 48: ...ing Control If dead control check for 120vac from BLACK on broil relay to WHITE on TB101 If 120vac board needs to be replaced If NO voltage check for 120vac from WHITE TB101 to chassis ground if 120vac limit switch is open called fan apparency switch ...

Page 49: ...unction with power removed LOTO check resistance from PR wire on RLY100 to Y wire on RLY101 should be approx 35 40 Ω If ok check between Y on RLY101 to O on RLY102 should be approx 20 Ω If open suspect HIGH LIMIT is open NOTE Unit should also have no BROIL function if HIGH LIMIT is open ...

Page 50: ...tion with power removed LOTO check resistance from PR wire on RLY100 to Y wire on RLY101 should be approx 35 40 Ω If ok check between PR on RLY100 to O on RLY102 should be approx 15 Ω If open suspect HIGH LIMIT is open NOTE Unit should also have no BAKE function if HIGH LIMIT is open ...

Page 51: ...cuit can be checked with power removed LOTO from TB101 to BK W wire on switch should show lamp resistance If showing resistance 100Ω approx Test door plunger switch NOTE Schematic on mini manual is mislabeled for OVEN LIGHT SWITCH CORRECT wiring is shown in GREY no nc ...

Page 52: ...K to W wires on pins 4 5 on P200 board with plug removed from board Door position switch is a feedback circuit for board to know if door is closed for STEAM CLEAN function and if door is open for prolonged cooking times With door CLOSED it should measure a CLOSED circuit from BR to Y wires on pins 1 3 on P200 board with plug removed from board ...

Page 53: ...n motor s CN950 Glass touch if equipped CN500 Control signal to lower oven relay board if equipped CN700 Fan motor FAD board s CN260 RJ45 TB100 L1 input to board TB101 Neutral input to board Element relays Convection Supplies L1 to one side of convection element Bake Supplies L1 to one side of bake element Broil Supplies L1 to one side of broil element DLB Supplies L2 to ALL elements These connect...

Page 54: ...achine Control Control bracket for all T012 controls On glass touch units all 4 clips are accessible from front or rear On tactile units the clips closest to ERC are not seen from front To remove ERC from control bracket There are 4 plastic clips on each side of ERC they can be accessed from the front or rear of control bracket ...

Page 55: ...55 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 Lower oven relay board daughter Back to definitions ...

Page 56: ...fely check for 120 VAC on Black wire on BROIL relay to WHITE wire on TB101 Making sure there is a load on the line Wires still connected to board Check BK wire to chassis ground if voltage present suspect open thermal limit switch of loss of Neutral from house supply ...

Page 57: ...unction with power removed LOTO check resistance from PR wire on RLY500A to Y wire on RLY501A should be approx 35 40 Ω If ok check between PR on RLY500A to O on RLY540 should be approx 15 Ω If open suspect HIGH LIMIT is open Unit should also have no BROIL function if HIGH LIMIT is open ...

Page 58: ...LOTO check resistance from PR wire on RLY500A to Y wire on RLY501A should be approx 35 40 Ω If ok check between PR on RLY500A to O on RLY540 should be approx 15 Ω If open suspect HIGH LIMIT is open Unit should also have no BAKE function if HIGH LIMIT is open Troubleshooting Broil upper ...

Page 59: ...itle or job number 11 26 2013 Control cycles between all elements during preheat when preheat temp reached continues with just bake and broil elements and convection fan motor shuts off Troubleshooting Preheat ...

Page 60: ... LOTO check resistance from PR wire on RLY500A to BLUE wire on RLY502A should be approx 35 40 Ω If ok check between PR on RLY500A to O on RLY540 should be approx 15 Ω If open suspect HIGH LIMIT is open Unit should also have no BROIL function if HIGH LIMIT is open Troubleshooting Convection ...

Page 61: ...r single convection 120 volt circuits Cooling fan motor LOW CN600 3 BK W 25Ω Latch motor CN600 1 GY BK 1 8KΩ Light circuit CN600 7 BR to CN600 5 BK not shown 18Ω Common Neutral test point TB101 WHITE Convection fan motor CN650 2 BLUE 30Ω 15Ω if Double Wall Oven ...

Page 62: ...rcuits Light circuit CN600 5 BK to CN600 7 BR approx 18Ω Convection fan motor CN650 2 BL to TB101 W approx 30Ω Latch motor CN600 1 GY BK to TB101 W approx 1 8KΩ NOTE door has to be closed Cooling fan motor LOW CN600 3 BK W to TB101 approx 25Ω NOTE 15Ω IF DWO as there are 2 motors in parallel ...

Page 63: ...ean Broil unit ON for 30 minutes or until temp reaches 785 then cycles between Bake and Broil for the duration of the Self clean cycle Switch on latch mechanism Troubleshooting Self clean upper RY660 is only active when locking or unlocking door ...

Page 64: ...ob number 11 26 2013 L1 N Upper oven circuit Lower oven circuit Connections are all located on LOWER OVEN RELAY BOARD daughter board NOTE Both COOLING FAN MOTORS come on together L2 Troubleshooting lower oven circuits ...

Page 65: ... number 11 26 2013 Lower oven relay board daughter board T012 AC circuits PIN 1 J6 Pin out AC CIRCUITS PIN 1 BLANK PIN 2 WHITE neutral PIN 3 BROWN light PIN 4 BLANK PIN 5 BLANK PIN 6 BLACK L1 PIN 7 GREY BLACK lock motor ...

Page 66: ...66 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 Lower oven relay board daughter board T012 dc circuits ERC Lower oven relay board J15 plug Very small terminals on both boards ...

Page 67: ...300 oven sensor Meat probe J900 door switches Upper FAD board J801 Lights cooling fan convection fan Common NEUTRAL J102 J803 conv J804 outer broil J101 ground Broil Bake L2 DLB Back to definitions Back to T of C Located behind control panel on floor 1 1 4 screw secures board to air duct ...

Page 68: ...on NEUTRAL J102 L1 input to board J300 oven sensor Meat probe J900 door switches Upper FAD board J801 Lights cooling fan convection fan J700 Communications Troubleshooting Machine control mini manual view J803 conv J804 outer broil J101 Ground ...

Page 69: ...102 WHITE approx 15Ω Cooling fan motor HIGH J801 3 BK W to J102 WHITE approx 18Ω Cooling fan motor LOW J801 2 RED W to J102 WHITE approx 25Ω Convection fan motor CW J801 5 RED to J102 WHITE approx 300Ω Convection fan motor CCW J801 4 BLUE W to J102 WHITE approx 300Ω Troubleshooting Upper or single convection 120 volt circuits ...

Page 70: ...itle or job number 11 26 2013 Control cycles between all elements during preheat when preheat temp reached continues with just bake and broil elements and convection fan motor shuts off Troubleshooting Preheat ...

Page 71: ...ecked from associated relay or terminal plug to Orange wire on DLB Double Line Break or check a combination of 2 elements by checking from Relay wire to relay wire For example Purple to Yellow should show approx 37Ω Checking both Broil units Purple to Purple Yellow should show approx 75Ω If elements check good but not to the Orange wire suspect an open HIGH LIMIT SWITCH ...

Page 72: ...ve 4 screws on bracket remove 2 screws on left side rear plug cover It might be necessary to remove lower air channel screws to access hidden lower left screw Remove 2 screws top rear air channel duct from middle and lower Next slide Motor assembly can now be pulled out to access FAD or motor When reassembling make sure plug is seated into wire cover before reinstalling motor ...

Page 73: ...ring rear wire covers this will give you access to wiring of elements convection fan motor thermal limit switch es cooling fan motor and cooling fan motor FAD board To access cooling fan motor remove screws securing top cover and cover above motor 4 screws hold fan motor bracket to frame If just replacing FAD board remove 1 T10 torx from board ...

Page 74: ...74 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 Cooling fan motor FAD Lower continued 7mm nuts Back to definitions Return to T of C FAD board held onto mounting with 7mm nuts FAD board ...

Page 75: ...75 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 Latch assembly unlatched T012 controls Door position switch TOP fan speed switch LOWER unlatched feedback switch terminals Latched feedback switch Back to features ...

Page 76: ...ol A 7 piece of brazing solder bent into L shape works very well to access latch pawl In the event that the door latch fails in locked position Be sure to put tape on tool to prevent scratching trim Shown with heat shrink on it 2 Back to features ...

Page 77: ...77 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 Latch assembly unlatched Machine control Door position switch Latched unlatched feedback switch terminals ...

Page 78: ...witch will open up the L2 circuit to all elements in case of a failure in relay or grounded element Opens at 177 C 350 F NON resettable Additional thermal switch only on NON SELF CLEAN MODELS JK1000 JT1000 it opens Neutral to control if it exceeds 221 F it will reset at 191 F Back to definitions ...

Page 79: ...n motor single speed one direction After removing convection element cover and fan blade from front Use LOTO and remove unit from installation Remove rear wire cover to access 3 T20 screws When reinstalling motor ensure all insulation is installed ...

Page 80: ...80 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 Convection motor advanced reversible and variable speed This type of motor uses a capacitor the capacitor is now located in top control area ...

Page 81: ...81 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 Notification LED boards Back to Definitions Back to T of C ...

Page 82: ...82 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 Oven sensor note be sure to reinstall insulation piece behind bracket ...

Page 83: ...itle or job number 11 26 2013 Hidden bake part 1 Insulation one strip with foil backing backing towards oven 1 piece of partially cut insulation may be changing Note be sure element is IN bracket and not above ...

Page 84: ...84 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 Hidden bake part 2 ...

Page 85: ...85 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 Hidden bake insulation Before removing top piece of hidden bake Insulation carefully cut 2 tabs holding piece together ...

Page 86: ...86 GE Title or job number 11 26 2013 Hidden bake bottom view ...

Page 87: ...1 4 long you ll have access to blade at this point 3 8 nut on shaft with reverse threads clockwise to remove Use caution when supporting blade as any twisting or reshaping of blade will affect proper operation Replace blade if damaged or out of spec Remove 5 T20 1 2 long screws to remove air duct then 4 T20 1 2 screws to remove element To remove Back to T of C Shown with element dismounted from re...

Page 88: ...can be turned on or off in the special features of your oven This feature works with Convection Bake Convection Bake Multi Convection Broil Convection Roast Traditional Bake Traditional Broil Warm Proof Self Clean Cook Time and Timer On a double wall oven the notification lighting indicates the status of the upper oven only Below is a description of the different light conditions OFF No oven or ti...

Page 89: ...differences Cycles convection operation of MC F Codes Stress the fact that 90 of f codes are NOT a board fault Accessing F codes on T012 units as it saves steps into manual SERVICE MODE New components FAD boards for fan speed monitoring Hidden bake access ...

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