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ZX Series USER MANUAL

Connect the yellow wire of SmartGUARD to the JP2 connector on SmartGUARD power control
board. (see fig. 3-31 )

Fig. 3-31 SmartGUARD Installation

Step 6.

Connect the yellow wire with white head on ZX Series power board to the JP1 connector on
SmartGUARD power control board. (see fig. 3-31 )

Step 7.

Connect the green wire of SmartGUARD to the connector on the ZX Series mother board. (see
fig. 3-32)

Step 5.

Step 6.

Connected from M/B 10
pin cable

10 pin cable connect to
Control Panel

Содержание LaserPro ZX Series

Страница 1: ......

Страница 2: ...nance Motion System the ZX Series is clearly on the cutting edge of all laser systems Pinnacle understands that a creative technical background is the key to successful growth in the ever changing inf...

Страница 3: ...ng the Mirrors and Lens 111 Motion System Maintenance 113 CHAPTER IV MECHANICAL OVERVIEW 15 Front View 15 Right Side View 16 Left Side View 17 Back View 18 Motion System Working Table View 22 Focus Le...

Страница 4: ...ot defined Color Adjustment Error Bookmark not defined Vector and Raster Error Bookmark not defined Vector Cutting Error Bookmark not defined Raster Engraving Error Bookmark not defined Printing ZX SE...

Страница 5: ...Attachment Software Operation Error Bookmark not defined Fig 3 25 SmartGUARD Fire Alarm Review 43 Fig 3 26 Install the SmartGUARD beneath here 43 Fig 3 28 SmartGUARD Installation 44 Fig 3 29 SmartGUA...

Страница 6: ...ion Page 2 81 Fig 5 38 Set Origin Page 82 Fig 5 39 Set Origin Page 82 Fig 6 1 Page and Layout Setup in CorelDraw Error Bookmark not defined Fig 6 2 Page Setup and Layout Error Bookmark not defined Fig...

Страница 7: ...7 13 How to Lubricate the Axis 114 Fig 7 14 Rail Dust Cleaning 114 TABLE CONTENT Table 1 Accessories checklist 13 Table 2 Manual Focus Holders and Lens 24 Table 3 DPI and Truncation Error 100 Table 4...

Страница 8: ...ZX Series is complete with a safety interlock system that automatically shuts off the power supply to the laser whenever the top or front door is opened There are magnets on the top and front door wh...

Страница 9: ...use the air assist system to prevent flames z Never leave the machine unattended during operation z Follow the maintenance and cleaning instructions well Not only will this enable you to use the mach...

Страница 10: ...ea On the front center of the top door WARNING Do not use reflective metals heat sensitive surfaces or other materials that may produce toxic substances or cause corrosion problems such as PVC and Tef...

Страница 11: ...the machine To prevent damage to the machine or personal injury please get assistance when loading and unloading the shipping crate Please save the original shipping crate in case it is needed for fut...

Страница 12: ...nloading STEP 3 Fig 2 3 Unpacking and unloading Fig 2 2 Unpacking Unscrew and remove the fixed wooden bar Slide step Connect slide step to the side board Move laser off settler boards Remove the fixed...

Страница 13: ...ZX Series USER MANUAL 12 Fig 2 4 Unpacking and UnloadingSTEP 4 Fig 2 5 Unpacking and Unloading Unlock the wheels Carefully rolls the ZX Series off the packing crate...

Страница 14: ...nacle ZX Series ITEM QUANTITY Cleaning Kit Cotton swabs Lens cleaner solution Lens tissue 1 1 1 PS2 Machine Oil 1 Hex Screw Wrench 1 2 Manual Focus Gauge blue 1 Position Fixture 1 Tubing Connector for...

Страница 15: ...to accommodate the machine the exhaust system the computer and a work storage table Having a separate working table or storage area prevents the operator from possibly damaging the machine or the com...

Страница 16: ...the installation it is a good idea to become more familiar with the machine s features and components You should also make note of the new features that have been developed exclusively for the Pinnac...

Страница 17: ...ZX Series USER MANUAL 16 Right Side View Fig 3 2 Machine Right Side View Fig 3 3 Power Switch and Inlet Switches Ports On Off Switch Fuses AC Power Inlet...

Страница 18: ...ZX Series USER MANUAL 17 Fig 3 4 Compressor Power Left Side View Fig 3 5 Machine left side view Mirror 3 Access Panel Mirror 3 Access Panel Fuse Air Assist Outlet AC Power...

Страница 19: ...USER MANUAL 18 Back View Fig 3 6 Machine Back View Fig 3 7 Communication Ports Communication Ports Laser Access Panel Exhaust Outlet Thump Screw Back Door Red Pointer Access Serial Port Parallel Port...

Страница 20: ...E 1 Never open laser access panel when machine is plugged in Fig 3 8 Mirror Access Fig 3 9 Remove mirror 1 To get to mirror 1 you have to open the access panel Mirror 1 with dust cover Take off the du...

Страница 21: ...ZX Series USER MANUAL 20 Fig 3 10 Remove mirror 1 Fig 3 11 Red Pointer Access Panel Red Pointer Access Panel...

Страница 22: ...ZX Series USER MANUAL 21 Fig 3 12 Red Pointer Access Red Pointer Access...

Страница 23: ...ad material from 65lbs 30kg and 86lbs 40kg 86lbs is the maximum 2 The origin point of Pinnacle ZX Series is set at 3 0 and the position fixture can help you to easily align the working piece with the...

Страница 24: ...ries USER MANUAL 23 Focus Lens Holder Assembly Fig 3 14 Laser Carriage Assembly Manual Focus Gauge Fig 3 15 Manual Focus Gauge Manual Focus Gauge Air Nozzle Auto Focus Pin Focus Lens Holder Mirror 4 C...

Страница 25: ...Gauges Holders Lenses The Pinnacle ZX Series gives you the choice of four lens sizes to best suit your cutting and engraving applications Shorter lenses work better for most etching application as the...

Страница 26: ...ble as bends reduce the exhaust efficiency Use the appropriate sized clamps to ensure proper attachment In an easily accessible location install a shut off gate to the exhaust blower tubing This gate...

Страница 27: ...cess particles from the working table towards the exhaust outlet This allows the exhaust system and the machine itself to function more effectively Follow the steps below to correctly install the Air...

Страница 28: ...s best for each application See fig 3 19 NOTE It is important that the tubing has clean straight cuts on each end Any jagged or slanted cuts will not produce a good seal between the tubing and the val...

Страница 29: ...t Top View Fig 3 21 Rotary Attachment Installation Top Window View Connect the cable of rotary attachment to the port at the middle right of the ZX Series Screw Holes Lever Track Ruler Center to 10 Co...

Страница 30: ...ter of the loaded object is 7 09 in 180mm and the limited loading weight is 15 4 Lb 7 Kg 1 Measure and write down the diameter of the engraving object 2 If you engrave objects with a diameter that is...

Страница 31: ...Plate Size Advanced New 14 In the name portion type in the name of the product being engraved i e Mug 15 Input the X value 17 322 in the width box It will always be 17 322 because that is the longest...

Страница 32: ...ZX Series USER MANUAL 31...

Страница 33: ...Guides Box In the upper left hand corner there will be 3 different types of guides you can select Y X and Diagonal 20 Use your arrows keys on your laser to move the laser head over to the beginning of...

Страница 34: ...ur laser it will give you an X grid coordinate 22 Select the X guides now 1 Input that number into your X box 2 and hit the add button 3 This will put a blue dotted line on your design plate showing y...

Страница 35: ...rows keys on your laser to move the laser head over to the end of your object ore the end of the engraving area You will see the red dot on the object 24 You will see on the display of your laser it w...

Страница 36: ...ou where you need to place your image to have it engrave on your object NOTE You can also do this for Y guides to show you where a label or a handle is on that object You would just select the Y guide...

Страница 37: ...15 4 Lb 7 Kg 1 Measure and write down the diameter of the engraving object 2 If you engrave objects with a diameter that is smaller than 3 00 inch s please use the 2 5 inch or 4 inch lens to prevent c...

Страница 38: ...asurement 15 Input the X value 17 322 in the width box It will always be 17 322 because that is the longest piece of material you can have in your rotary attachment 16 Input the Y value in the height...

Страница 39: ...ZX Series USER MANUAL 38...

Страница 40: ...s keys on your laser to move the laser head over to the beginning of your object or the beginning of your engraving area You will see the red dot on the object 20 You will see on the display of your l...

Страница 41: ...hen you pull it on the screen you will have a black line You can drop it anywhere 22 Select the guide in the design central you will now have a place where you can input the X measurement you got off...

Страница 42: ...rows keys on your laser to move the laser head over to the end of your object ore the end of the engraving area You will see the red dot on the object 24 You will see on the display of your laser it w...

Страница 43: ...lines will show you where you need to place your image to have it engrave on your object in the rotary attachment NOTE You can also do this for Y guides to show you where a label or a handle is on th...

Страница 44: ...r and alert at the same time when it senses fire lasting for 1second 2nd level is for 4 seconds and 3rd for 8 seconds Sensor adjustment switch level Reaction time 1st level 1 second 2nd level 4 second...

Страница 45: ...Series as indicated in fig 3 27 Fig 3 27 SmartGUARD installation Step 3 Feed the wires of SmartGUARD through the A opening next to the Y axis on the right side of ZX SERIES see fig 3 28 Fig 3 28 Smart...

Страница 46: ...he M1 and M3 openings on SmartGUARD power control board to the two posts on ZX SERIES mother board separately see fig 3 29 Fig 3 29 SmartGUARD Installation Fig 3 30 SmartGUARD Installation Step 5 Appl...

Страница 47: ...UARD Installation Step 6 Connect the yellow wire with white head on ZX Series power board to the JP1 connector on SmartGUARD power control board see fig 3 31 Step 7 Connect the green wire of SmartGUAR...

Страница 48: ...MANUAL 47 Fig 3 32 SmartGUARD Installation Step 8 Assemble the side cover of ZX Series with screws to finish SmartGUARD installation Step 9 Turn on ZX Series and it would initiate fire alarm function...

Страница 49: ...ion do not support USB port The Pinnacle ZX Series is compatible with any graphic design program that can output HPGL commands CorelDRAW Adobe Photoshop CASmate PhotoPaint AutoCAD Illustrator Signlab...

Страница 50: ...mputer and insert the Laser Setup CD Please keep ZX SERIES off at this moment STEP 2 Open My Computer Double click on the CD ROM Drive Usually D Double click on Drivers Double Click on USB Drivers Dou...

Страница 51: ...STEP 2 Open My Computer Double click on the CD ROM Drive Usually D Double click on Drivers Double Click on USB Drivers Double Click on Remove STEP 3 Double click ADD PRINTER and start the ADD PRINTER...

Страница 52: ...ZX Series USER MANUAL 51 Fig 4 5 Print Driver Installation STEP 6 Insert the Pinnacle ZX Series driver disk into the compact disk reader STEP 7 Select a Printer Port and choose NEXT STEP see fig 4 6...

Страница 53: ...ion STEP 8 Click Have Disk see fig 4 7 Fig 4 7 Print Driver Installation STEP 9 Click Brows and Point it to your CD ROM Drive Double Click on Drivers Double Click on Explorer Select the file Click OK...

Страница 54: ...ose ZX Series to be the default printer and click NEXT STEP see fig 4 9 Fig 4 9 Print Driver Installation STEP 11 Select Replace existing driver if this screen comes up and click NEXT STEP see fig 4 1...

Страница 55: ...or Explorer select NO if you don t want to use this printer as the default printer and click NEXT STEP see fig 4 11 Fig 4 11 Print Driver Installation STEP 13 Select Do not share this printer and cli...

Страница 56: ...5 STEP 14 Select NO when asked to print a test page and click NEXT STEP see fig 4 13 Fig 4 13 Print Driver Installation STEP 15 Click FINISH to complete the Add Printer Wizard see fig 4 14 Fig 4 14 Pr...

Страница 57: ...iver disk from the computer and store it in a safe place STEP 18 Go to the Printers and Faxes and choose the ZX Series printer by click right mouse button to open the printer property STEP19 Go to the...

Страница 58: ...asks The Control Panel The control panel on the Pinnacle ZX SERIES provides easy access to all of the manual controls needed for cutting and engraving The liquid crystal display LCD directional and se...

Страница 59: ...itting files to ZX SERIES the control panel would display as following When the Pinnacle ZX Series is powered on the machine will perform a series of safety checks and initializing routines The graphi...

Страница 60: ...nc F1 F2 Previous file Next file File management Machine setting Machine information Standby Back Help Recall F4 Functional Page Select function Adjust value Press ENTER to go into items 002 File name...

Страница 61: ...e Speed XX DPI XXX Power XX PPI XXX XX XX XX 001 001 File name Speed XX DPI XXX PAUSE XX XX XX 001 001 F1 Pause Job File name Speed XX DPI XXX Power XX PPI XXX XX XX XX 001 001 F1 Resume job STOP File...

Страница 62: ...ving Auto Focusing Please Wait Z 00 00 Auto Focus File name Speed XX DPI XXX Power XX PPI XXX XX XX XX 001 001 Carriage Moving X 00 00 mm Y 00 00 mm Z Directional keys F3 or F4 Z 00 00 mm Move Z dista...

Страница 63: ...er XX PPI XXX XX XX XX 001 001 01 File name 02 File name 03 File name 04 File name F1 Back to file selection F4 Raster setting Vector setting Repeat times 000 Raster Power Raster Speed SmartACT YES or...

Страница 64: ...er Mode Save Position Others Reset Moving table Enter save value Lens 4 0 Z 00mm ENTER Language English Unit metric or English EOF alarm YES or NO Air delay 00 sec Auto focus value tuning Other settin...

Страница 65: ...L 64 Functional Page Machine Information File management Machine setting Machine information Standby ENTER Machine Information Page GCC LaserPro EXPLORER Copyright 200x Down direction key Firmware ver...

Страница 66: ...jobs in the buffer Pressing the FUNC button will transport you to the Function Select Page where you will be able to edit File Management Machine Settings and Machine Information see Fig 5 2 Empty Fi...

Страница 67: ...adjust the starting 0 0 point of the x and y rails Without adjustment the 0 0 starting point of your job will be the extreme upper left hand corner of the motion system This point will correspond to...

Страница 68: ...00 39 21 001 005 Pause Fig 5 4 File Management Information Page Stop Job In Working Page you can press STOP button to stop a job Pause Job In the Working Page you can press F1 to pause the job tempora...

Страница 69: ...rmation Standby Back Help Recall Fig 5 6 Function Select Page Function Select Page File Management The File Management Page will show all of the files that have been downloaded into the ZX SERIES Pres...

Страница 70: ...ig 5 8 Or using Star and move to the main operation page 01 File name Speed DPI Power PPI 00 03 35 001 005 Back Edit Fig 5 8 File Management Information Page Once F4 is pressed you will go to the File...

Страница 71: ...saved settings downloaded from the computer Select the SmartACT option to initiate the function of SmartACT to speed EXPLORETR operation speed when perfect output quality is not a demand see fig 5 10...

Страница 72: ...GHT direction buttons to adjust repeat times see fig 5 12 Repeat Times Back Fig 5 12 File Edit Others Page2 NOTE If the Repeat Times is set to 0 the file would be repeated without limits File Manageme...

Страница 73: ...5 14 Change job printing sequence Step 3 Stop the cursor at the starting file you would like set as the first printing job and press F2 key to initiate the LINK function or F4 to DLINK see fig 5 15 5...

Страница 74: ...or at Laser3 cdr and press F2 to start LINK You would find Laser3 crd file gets a X sign The x sign means that the LINK is working and you can link the current file to another one Fig 5 18 Change job...

Страница 75: ...on and the x sign would disappear Fig 5 21 Change job printing sequence C How to DLINK files DLINK here stands for removing files from specified job queue Here we would show you how to remove Laser2 c...

Страница 76: ...b queue 2 ZX Series can accept multiple job queues at the same time each job queue is independent and unable to link each other 3 In order to know the printing sequence the main working page would rem...

Страница 77: ...ent Fig 5 26 After adjusting to different focus lens we would suggest you to press AUTO FOCUS and ZX SERIES would get the new focal length accordingly Select Auto Focus Lens Lens 2 0 Back Save Fig 5 2...

Страница 78: ...LEFT or RIGHT directional button to adjust red pointer on or off Machine Setting Carriage Lock Carriage lock or free function would enable the lens carriage remain under always free or lock status un...

Страница 79: ...tting Set Multiple File Set Multiple File function enables you to automatically delete or save the files after output When you start to work and choose not to save the file each job would be automatic...

Страница 80: ...rriage moves to the saved position and starts to print Notice Save Position function is only effective under Relative or Center mode Save Position Set Multiple File Set Vector Mode Tune Image Power Ot...

Страница 81: ...e file on the computer z User Reset Click User Reset all setting would be set back to the origins z System Reset After upgrading a new firmware the system has to be reset click System Reset the versio...

Страница 82: ...ZX SERIES USER MANUAL 81 Firmware FPGA Back Fig 5 37 Machine Information Page 2...

Страница 83: ...TER key when display shows GCC LaserPro Explorer Copyright 200x Until it shows Set Origin Page Enter Setting Origin Start Stop Restart Back Fig 5 38 Set Origin Page Step 2 Press ENTER to set origin an...

Страница 84: ...d corner in the origin selection as shown below Step4 Ensure the Landscape option is checked Step5 Click OK to complete the page size setting Now your blank size should reflect the same size as the ZX...

Страница 85: ...line it will raster engrave first and then vector cut Vectorized image file types include ai eps dxf dwg plt prn Vector Cutting If laser engraver will NOT vector cut it is because the width of the tex...

Страница 86: ...ZX SERIES USER MANUAL 85...

Страница 87: ...lick Preferences Tab Make sure 3 things are selected Plate Area Bitmaps and Print as shown on screen If these 3 things are not selected the laser will not engrave in the right spot and will not engrav...

Страница 88: ...e size settings Step1 In your Design Central click View and Design Central to open Click the arrow pointing to the right and click Add Change name to ZX Series Change the Width to 32 0 in and the Heig...

Страница 89: ...utting is when the laser follows the hair line outline of an object and cuts an object out Usually illustrated by the color red Only vectorized images have the ability to be given an hair line outline...

Страница 90: ...ut 2 In the Stroke and Fill Editor box View Fill Stroke Editor to bring up 3 On the Fill Tab change the fill to No Fill 4 On the Stroke tab the pencil make it look like this Style will be straight lin...

Страница 91: ...in the right spot and will not engrave the image correctly Now click ok Select the Explorer Laser Click Properties Notice If the width of the line to be cut is not set at Hairline 0 000 the laser will...

Страница 92: ...antage of the many performance editing features of the ZX SERIES driver by clicking FILE PRINT PROPERTIES see fig 6 8 Fig 6 8 Machine Output and Property Fig 6 9 Output Properties Setting File paramet...

Страница 93: ...riment with these different settings to get the best results Fig 6 10 Raster Dithering mode setting Dithering type The gray areas of image will be filled with from a 5 grade halftone with 2x2 dots to...

Страница 94: ...S USER MANUAL 93 2 2 dithering 4 4 dithering 8 8 dithering Error Diffusion 2x2 Enhance Dithering 8x8 Enhance Dithering Dot Bayer Corner 45 degree 4 4 dithering 45 degree 6 6 dithering 45 degree 8 8 di...

Страница 95: ...orful image to a black and white one before output by a laser under B W mode A 2 Manual Color Fill Mode Activate this mode when you wish to designate specific power and speed settings to certain color...

Страница 96: ...pitch is a way to add support to the thin lines and ridges The pitch value setting allows you to adjust the width of the ridge Broad pitch gives the maximum amount of support for each ridge Experimen...

Страница 97: ...001 thickness around the image When the Mirror setting is selected this outline will automatically be reserved as a ridge that does get engraved NOTE The automatic Border setting is located in ZX Ser...

Страница 98: ...irror When using a stamp the image needs to be reversed or mirrored in order to show up properly when the stamp is in use This setting will transfer right to left and vice versa Fig 6 16 Mirror Effect...

Страница 99: ...ut the output quality can t be exactly same as what it is under normal speed mode B Parameter Settings The Pinnacle ZX Series allows the use of 16 different colors to represent 16 different power and...

Страница 100: ...lect the color you would like to apply see fig 6 19 Fig 6 18 Pen color adjustment NOTE The driver can not store more than 16 pen colors for each file Speed The master control for the laser s motion sy...

Страница 101: ...ces The list DPI is set for user s convenience to remember the form below is provided for corresponding to the real DPI Set DPI 125 250 300 380 500 600 750 1000 Real DPI 127 254 381 381 508 762 762 10...

Страница 102: ...ult settings in Pinnacle driver for future files b Please make sure your ID to log in the computer is set to Administrator level therefore OS of 2000 XP can allow you to save parameter settings Fig 6...

Страница 103: ...e dust that may get lodged in the engraved area if the machine engraves from top to bottom Since the exhaust system is located at the rear of the machine the dust will be sucked away from the engraved...

Страница 104: ...at the same time Adjust the Distance setting to determine the maximum distance the laser can leap frog from one image to another C 8 Enhanced Vector Mode Check the enhanced vector mode to increase th...

Страница 105: ...00 35 00 80 00 40 00 90 00 45 00 100 00 50 00 Table 4 ZX Series Enhanced Vector Mode and Normal Speed Comparison table Paper Settings These settings are included in ZX Series driver Properties Paper...

Страница 106: ...aved images with smoother present To adjust the Image tuning always engrave a small full black square first and observe the blurred edge diagram by applying microscope Table 5 will show you when you s...

Страница 107: ...m when the output quality is not high requirement NOTE 3D and Stamp mode would be disabled under EXTEND working area Uninstall driver Push the button to uninstall the driver of ZX Series and please re...

Страница 108: ...d alcohol DO NOT use alcohol or any painted surface plastic or the laser system Acetone ONLY to be used on the working table Vacuum cleaner with a flexible nozzle capable of cleaning the working table...

Страница 109: ...h prolonged usage To keep the motion system functioning properly we recommend that the rails be lubricated on a semi regular basis Use a small amount of light grade machine oil to a paper or cotton to...

Страница 110: ...l panel to move the x rail mirror 3 to a position adjacent to the Mirror 3 Access Panel Turn on the machine use the control panel to move the x rail to an appropriate location turn off the machine and...

Страница 111: ...nd for mirror 2 replace the dust cover see the next section Mirror 4 Mirror 4 is attached to the laser carriage by three small hex screws Using an allen wrench remove the three hex screws holding Mirr...

Страница 112: ...s to clean the mirrors The laser beam reflects off the middle of the mirror so do not worry about the outside edge of the mirror If the center of the mirror is scratched contact your Pinnacle ZX SERIE...

Страница 113: ...the first attempt DO NOT apply any finger pressure or other cleaning solutions to the mirror surface Make sure that the mirror is dry before reinstalling it Cleaning the Focus Lens Gently unscrew the...

Страница 114: ...on about every week please check if rails become dry or lens carriage moves not so smoothly and lubricate the rails with sponge applying with PS2 grease check Fig 7 12 and 7 13 to see how to apply PS2...

Страница 115: ...Rails Maintenance Fig 7 13 How to Lubricate the Axis Fig 7 14 Rail Dust Cleaning Clean the dust piled up in the end of groove on rails Lubricate the groove of rails with PS2 grease Clean the groove of...

Страница 116: ...he focus lens is not properly installed or loose in the holder 2 Debris or dust has built up in the bearing tracks or X Axis rails 3 The focus lens and the mirror in the carriage are damaged or need c...

Страница 117: ...been set to the thinnest Because at thinnest line width it still goes beyond the boarder and causes the error If the message appears randomly but frequently even image object is smaller or within the...

Страница 118: ...es there will be per linear inch PPI is exclusively for the vector setting A PPI setting of 500 results in the laser firing every 002 500 times per inch If the standard lens is producing a vector lase...

Страница 119: ...job Power Control Available from 0 1 100 and 16 colors linked power setting per job Z Axis Moving Automatic Resolution DPI Available 125 250 300 380 500 600 750 1000 Computer Interface Standard print...

Страница 120: ...up 1 3mm Cutting off 3D engraving Material 1cm Acrylic by Venus 12W Lens 1 5 inch Step Speed Power DPI PPI Focus Remarks 1 13 100 600 auto Auto Focus 3D Mode Engraving 2 13 100 600 auto Lower down ta...

Страница 121: ...laser engraver For other detailed water cooler installation information please refer to the user manual that comes with the water cooler Step 1 Please connect the water pipe of the water cooler to th...

Страница 122: ...to the connectors on the laser tube Outlet tubing on photo B to outlet connector on photo C Inlet tubing on photo B to inlet connector on photo C Outlet connector on engravers Inlet connector on engra...

Страница 123: ...that are connected beneath the laser machine and then lift the two tubes up as high as possible so that the cooling water will not drain out 2 Do not disconnect the tubes too often in some cases the...

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